ROTHENBURGER – Are two-thirds of Canadians really ‘morbid denialists’?

I submit that there is a big difference between denialism and skepticism, and between hate speech and free speech

ONCE AGAIN, the “denialism” word is being tossed about with abandon. Last week, CFJC news director James Peters used it freely to describe a handful of people who showed up at the TRU campus to question the “unmarked graves” narrative at the Kamloops residential school.

One of them was MLA Dallas Brodie, who, as of last evening (Nov. 18, 2025), is the subject of a demand by Tk̓emlúps te Secwépemc Kukwpi7 Rosanne Casimir that she resign.

Casimir announced she has presented a resolution to the B.C. Assembly of First Nations calling for the resignation due to “her repeated expressions of denialism and acts of racism and discrimination.”

It’s true that Brodie stands by her comments on the “215,” but it came to a head earlier this year — as Casimir noted in her statement late yesterday — when the MLA posted on social media that “the number of confirmed child burials at the former Kamloops Indian Residential School site is zero. Zero.”

It is, of course, true that no excavations have been carried out at the site where ground penetrating survey research identified 215 (later adjusted slightly downward, but the “215” has remained in popular usage) possible grave sites in 2021.

Casimir has been inconsistent in her description of that finding. In her initial revelation about the GPR results, she stated they had “confirmed” the existence of the remains of 215 children. She then took a resolution to the Assembly of First Nations in Ottawa condemning what she repeatedly referred to as “mass graves.”

The “mass graves” description was widely debunked and Casimir later began more accurately calling the GPR discoveries “anomalies” and “potential unmarked graves.”

Brodie and others who question the existence of unmarked graves don’t always do so sensitively but they don’t deny that terrible abuses occurred at residential schools. Brodie, though, has been accused of using a “mocking” tone of voice while talking about residential school survivors.

When Brodie appeared at TRU last week, she was accompanied by Frances Widdowson, who was fired by Mount Royal University for questioning the interpretation of the GPR test. An arbitrator later found her firing improper but recommended that it stand because the employment relationship had been irreparably harmed.

Joining Brodie and Widdowson was Jim McMurtry, fired from his Abbotsford teaching job for questioning a student’s assumption that teachers at the residential school were “murderers who tortured students to death by leaving them out in the snow.” Kids who died at the school “did so mostly from disease,” mainly tuberculosis, McMurtry countered.

All three — Widdowson, Brodie and McMurtry — say the sites identified by the GPR survey at the Kamloops school should be excavated in order to prove or disprove the claim that they actually do contain remains.

When they showed up on campus at TRU and were confronted with a crowd opposed to their presence, they were informed they were trespassing. (By the way, Casimir also blames Brodie for allegedly spreading misinformation about the implications of the TteS lawsuit seeking aboriginal rights over all of Kamloops, Sun Peaks and the surrounding area. I’ll address her remarks on that issue separately.)

Very seldom do I choose to rebut the opinions held by other commentators but Friday’s “Two And Out” editorial by James Peters cannot be allowed to pass unchallenged.

I have much respect for Peters but find his opposition to excavating the site inconsistent with the cardinal rule of good journalism that truth and accuracy must always be sought, that you don’t just accept the first thing you hear.

Peters has believed unquestioningly in the existence of unmarked graves since the first news conference held by the Tk’emlúps band in 2021 to announce the ground penetrating radar findings.

In his Friday editorial he described people who support excavation this way: “They believe the confirmation of 215 suspected graves located near the former Kamloops Indian Residential School is a lie. Morbidly, they demand exhumation of remains.”

“Morbid” to seek confirmation? Former Kúkpi7 Manny Jules has stated he favours excavation. “I am certain this will now become a forensic investigation,” he has said. Current Kúkwpi7 Casimir says excavation is a matter of working through “cultural protocols” before it can be done but hasn’t definitively come out in support, saying it would be “very intrusive.”

If Peters is right, most Canadians are “morbid” and “denialists.” In August of this year, an Angus Reid Institute survey found that 63 per cent of Canadians, including 56 per cent of indigenous people, believe “further evidence is necessary to accept that the remains of children are buried at the site.” Canadians also don’t think losing your job for raising questions is fair.

Certainly, there may be those who deny residential schools ever even existed. And there are, no doubt, some who deny that anything bad ever happened in them. Others fail to give the trauma caused by residential schools the proper acknowledgement. Brodie, for example, calls the unmarked graves a “hoax.” It is not a hoax; whether or not it becomes substantiated remains to be seen but calling it a hoax suggests it’s a trick, which it is not.

But while Widdowson, Brodie and McMurtry have said some things that most of us find hard to accept, and don’t always express themselves in a way that takes into account the delicacy of the issue or the rawness of memories of survivors, it doesn’t make them denialists or haters.

Instead of banning such people from university campuses and hotel meeting rooms, and literally forcing them outside, why not welcome them in to defend their views?

Hate speech incites hatred against a person or group based on race, religion, ethnicity etc. Free speech is about expressing opinions without being censored or punished.

A denialist is someone who refuses to recognize a reality even though there is strong evidence to support it. A skeptic is someone who questions claims or statements and requires evidence before accepting them.

I suggest these are important distinctions, and that labelling skeptics as denialists, racists and haters is contrary to the spirit of reconciliation, not supportive of it.

Mel Rothenburger is a former regular contributor to CFJC-TV and CBC radio, publishes the ArmchairMayor.ca opinion website, and is a recipient of the Jack Webster Foundation Lifetime Achievement Award, and a Webster Foundation Commentator of the Year finalist. He has served as mayor of Kamloops, school board chair and TNRD director, and is a retired daily newspaper editor.  He can be reached at mrothenburger@armchairmayor.ca.